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Post by bomber on Jun 1, 2016 11:41:58 GMT
In the eu. I don't. Must be the demographic I mix with.
Yet remain seems to be in front in the polls.
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Post by westendspitfire on Jun 1, 2016 13:19:31 GMT
Think most of us want to remain. the vote will probably show that the remainers are only about 10% more than the outers so you are only in a slight minority Bomber
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2016 14:14:22 GMT
I'm a bit of an outsider but I think there are more benefits to remaining rather than leaving.
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Post by bomber on Jun 1, 2016 14:43:40 GMT
Think most of us want to remain. the vote will probably show that the remainers are only about 10% more than the outers so you are only in a slight minority Bomber Really? If most of us want to remain, why is the latest Brexit poll showing 'leave' in front? Honestly. How did we survive pre EU superstate?
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Post by nobadspitfire on Jun 1, 2016 16:02:38 GMT
Not the place for politics. I'm firmly on the remain side, but it seems to me all the noise about the referendum is being made by those in favour of leaving.
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Post by westendspitfire on Jun 1, 2016 19:31:46 GMT
Think most of us want to remain. the vote will probably show that the remainers are only about 10% more than the outers so you are only in a slight minority Bomber Really? If most of us want to remain, why is the latest Brexit poll showing 'leave' in front? Honestly. How did we survive pre EU superstate? Not really sure you can trust the polls as last year's election showed especially when there are so many and they have a different result each day. People are averse to change and don't think leave have given any solid reason to encourage the result they want.
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Post by back4more on Jun 2, 2016 10:43:18 GMT
I understand Martin's comment that this is not the place for politics but I believe that British sovereignty transcends politics.
Re the polls being referred to, the last one I saw was an unofficial one this week on Martin Lewis's (moneysavingexpert.com) weekly email newsletter and this was coming out with well over 60% in favour of "leave".
My impression is that the "remainers" are concerned we will be "on our own" out of the EU when actually we are already "on our own" inside the EU. We are very much a minority voice on the Council of Ministers and we are on the losing side in almost every major European Parliament vote. The Commission cooks up its schemes and regulations behind closed doors with no regard to our interests.
If I knew how to it, I would add a link to the letter I sent to my MP in February before she joined the "leave" campaign.
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Post by westendspitfire on Jun 2, 2016 11:57:18 GMT
As this is the off topic board why not politics?
As a remainer my main concerns in leaving would be the erosion of the positive things the eu has done on the Green issues 100% certain a government not bound by the EU laws on these issues would revoke them all in a stroke so they could cash in.
Apart from that there is not one person in the higher echelons of the leave campaign I would trust to look after my dog let alone the country!!
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Post by back4more on Jun 2, 2016 13:13:04 GMT
Fortunately, westend, they won't be running the country, in or out.
If we leave the EU we'll be able to choose our own leaders as we have in the past, irrespective of who was leading which referendum campaign.
If we remain we'll be governed forever by the centralised EU superstate and our parliament will have no real powers so it will hardly be relevant who is in the UK "government".
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Post by bomber on Jun 2, 2016 13:45:18 GMT
The lies and mistruths about immigration are sickening. Camerons absolutely laughable words regarding bringing down immigration come to mind here. He is powerless to stop it as being in the EU forbids it. As said previously, he is in NO position to sway the EU into anything, we are weaker in the EU.
I'd like to tell you why I want 'out'.
Blair's calamitous policy, no make that treacherous. How else to describe a policy that added up to three million people to our population in disastrously short order, mostly through uncontrolled, unnecessary and unwanted immigration?
This was a vile, cunningly devised scheme to rub the Rights nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date in the unguarded words of one of Blairs speechwriters. More simply: ship in all and sundry, they will always vote Labour, we will be in for life and never mind the consequences.
Many believe Blair should be put on trial for his role in taking us to what looks like an increasingly illegal war in Iraq. I would try him for allowing the country to be swamped with millions of new arrivals as, and this fact is absolutely vital to remember, it was not fair to anyone; not those who were already here, those who arrived or those who came along subsequently.
Communities felt they lost their identities, schools were filled to the point that giant cabins were quickly rushed into playgrounds to fit in all the children, many of whom could speak no English, and resentment quickly grew.
Hospital A & E units became crammed and swiftly (and often totally unfairly) immigrants were blamed for everything from the housing crisis to unemployment and crowded public transport to the faintly farcical idea that they were eating all our swans.
When do you suppose Tony or Cherie last sat in an NHS surgery to see their GP, or had to get another tasteless cup of coffee from a vending machine in a harshly lit hospital corridor as the hours waiting in Casualty ticked by. It is also unlikely their children will ever be on a housing list as the couple own eight mansions or homes.
For the author of this ghastly misfortune, any challenge to the maelstrom he deliberately and callously unleashed is repressive and reactionary. That is a stunning deceit to be perpetrated by a politician who was once said to be at one with the British working man and woman.
What this deluded and delusional one time political giant has failed to grasp is that it is those Labour voters who have helped Nigel Farage and his Ukip allies romp home in such style. This is not a party that just takes from the Tories, it can lure from Labour too.
Blairs final insult to those who voted Ukip is that they are closed-minded. However, it is perhaps instead you Mr Blair who have a mind totally closed, bolted and padlocked against any notion you got it wrong over immigration.
Just stick to counting your cash, flying around the world and your role as Middle East peace envoy. A role in which the tragic, continuing death toll is testament to your ability.
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Post by westendspitfire on Jun 3, 2016 6:47:59 GMT
Fortunately, westend, they won't be running the country, in or out.
If we leave the EU we'll be able to choose our own leaders as we have in the past, irrespective of who was leading which referendum campaign.
If we remain we'll be governed forever by the centralised EU superstate and our parliament will have no real powers so it will hardly be relevant who is in the UK "government".
Not sure which election you have voting in where you have been able to choose our leaders? Our voting system doesn't give us that choice we can vote for a local mp only. The majority of people don't get their choice of mp let alone party and definately not leader who is choosen by the winning party. In reality we have more of a vote to choose the party our MEP comes from. That's not even mentioning the unelected monarch and house of lords.
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Post by bomber on Jun 3, 2016 7:17:30 GMT
But the reality is most vote for a particular party, rather than who their local mp is.
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Post by westendspitfire on Jun 3, 2016 9:11:34 GMT
But the reality is most vote for a particular party, rather than who their local mp is. The reality is many people do not have their vote making any difference. If you live in Sunderland and don't vote Labour your vote doesn't count, same in Dorset if you dont vote for the Tories. We do not live in a fair democracy so to say we get to choose anything is just plain wrong. A minority make every decision in this country
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Post by back4more on Jun 3, 2016 10:02:23 GMT
Westend, I would totally agree that our system of democracy is not very - erm - democratic. The current system is an anachronism that worked in the 19th and early 20th century. We really need a better system, perhaps even proportionate representation. Unfortunately there are too many vested interests for the current system to be likely to change in most of our lifetimes. We do at least however have some self determination. It might not be perfect but this country can decide on its government and hold its elected politicians accountable. We have reached the situation though with the EU where our elected government has no power. More policies and legislation are being made every day in Brussels which override UK laws and British interests. Our elected Parliament is becoming nothing more than a monument to history. Totally agree re the House of Lords - it seems to be free day care for a bunch of ancient cronies. Anyway, here's a copy and paste of my earlier mentioned February letter to my MP. As also mentioned she did subsequently pin her colours to the "leave" mast. Good morning Ms Fernandes.
First can I say how encouraging it was to learn of the Government’s intention to take political lobbying etc away from the charity sector. I hope this discourages the political propaganda I get tired of reading from the Football Supporters’ Federation.
The reason for this message though is to make a few points regarding the EU Referendum. I noticed that the BBC haven’t included your name in its listing posted in its website today of Conservative MPs for and against the UK’s EU membership. That might be because they don’t have the information but in case there is still a decision to be made on your part I hope you won’t mind if I make some comment.
My own conclusion regarding the EU is that it is institutionally anti English. Also, regrettably, I believe our senior politicians are far less tuned in to the running of the EU than are the French, Germans or even the Eastern European leaders. I have many reasons for holding those views including the following.
1. A few years ago the neighbouring constituency of Eastleigh was the world centre for the manufacture of the Ford Transit van. Ford sought help from the EU to subsidise through the European Investment Bank the development and expansion of its Turkish Transit plant, until that time a satellite of the main Eastleigh factory. This was agreed with the result that Ford, a non EU company, were able to close the Eastleigh plant and transfer all of its production and support activities to Turkey, a non EU country. Over 2500 UK jobs were lost in England, 1300 direct Ford employees and a similar number in the hard and soft services and materials supply chain supporting the plant. This was not just 2500 people losing their then current jobs. It was the removal from this country of over 2500 future career opportunities for future generations including professional and engineering roles and apprenticeships. This loss was all funded by a massive EU loan to Ford. Mr Osborne’s response at the time when this situation was questioned was that it was a matter for the European Investment Bank to answer. In other words he seemed to be saying that his Government had no say in the matter. I had to ask myself at the time whether France, Germany or any other EU country would have allowed this to happen and I still believe that there is and never will be any chance of that happening elsewhere. Just for ease of reference the following links relate to the Ford closure.
www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/briefing/fordfactory/10026411.Focus_on_Ford__The___80m_EU_loan_for_Ford_s_Turkish_Transit_plant/
www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/13619842.PHOTOS__Demolition_of_Ford_factory_nears_completion/
2. At the risk of repeating what many other people have pointed out, the EU seems to us ordinary people to be undemocratic and unaccountable, being effectively run and legislated by the mysterious Commission which is not democratically elected. EU member countries on the face of it have less autonomy in the running of their countries’ day to day business (excluding defence, security and for the time being foreign affairs) than a USA state. The construction and ethos of the EU is closer to the centralisation and dogma of the USSR. The Commission could be easily seen as a modern day Politburo.
3. The EU is now the Government. When George Osborne told the ladies of this country that they would have to henceforth pay tax on their sanitary towels he added that this was a decision made by the EU (believed to have been instructed effectively by the Commission). Hidden away on page 19 of 10th January House of Commons Briefing Paper 00745 is a Commission dictat which rules that recreational fishermen cannot take home a single Bass from 1st January to end of June. There are restrictions on commercial trawlers (primarily French and Spanish) but they will still be allowed to catch and land significant quantities of fish. The original restrictions proposed by the UK would have allowed recreational fishermen to take home limited catches and would have had a greater restriction on commercial trawlers. It seems the Commission have overruled the UK and gone with the interests of the French and Spanish trawlermen and have managed to hide that away without anyone noticing it. Anyone with a fishing rod down at Hill Head could now be jailed if they haven’t read that Briefing Paper and innocently take a Bass home. I only noticed because of a Richard Littlejohn article in the Mail.
4. British banks were forced by the EU to divest branches and therefore customers on several occasions in recent years when the Government of the day provided financial support to prevent their failure. The main beneficiaries needless to say were not British and Santander did very well by being given a “leg up” into the UK retail banking market by the EU action. I believe that Spanish and French banks have been ”rescued” more recently either directly or indirectly by their respective Governments but have seen no sign of a similar penalty being applied. Other EU Governments are allowed by the EU to invest in important British companies without anyone batting an eyelid. The example that comes to mind is the acquisition of Arriva by the German state owned organisation Deutsch Bahn. Perhaps this is our own fault for not knowing how to “work” the EU in the same way that the other member states do.
5. These are just a few examples of the extent to which our lives are being run by the EU. They are the “thin end of the wedge”. There is nothing to stop the EU replacing most of our national legislation. If we remain in the EU and this process continues to expand, as it will, what will be the point of Parliament? We won’t have any need of a national layer of government because our government will have nothing to do all day. Perhaps we will just need a national defence ministry to run our army and navy until the Commission outlaws national defence.
6. The agreements which Mr Cameron has got from the other member states are superficial and temporary and do not deal with any of the above concerns. The argument that the UK economy would suffer outside the EU is weak. There would be some consequences but these would be far outweighed by the benefits to be gained in terms of our future freedom and prosperity. A risk to the national economy of the time didn’t stop this country from defending its freedom 77 years ago and that turned out to be a good decision.
Thank you for reading this and I hope you might be able to take some of these issues into account in deciding which future you will support for our country.
Best regards
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 11:03:46 GMT
I'm in the Leave camp, I voted that way in 1975 and nothing has changed except then we were supposed to be voting for trade links, we weren't told the plan was to create a superstate one nation controlling all of Europe. That's where its heading, do you want Germany to control our Army, Air Force and Navy? Do you want to eventually have to take the Euro currency? Bit by bit they will take everything that we hold dear, though not in my lifetime. I'm voting for the future generations. If remains wins just watch how they push everything through because we've given them a mandate by staying in, if we come out, they threaten to wreck us with high tariffs on trade, bully boy tactics. We can actually free Europe, the French and German people are beginning to see it cannot work, lets get it rolling to fall.
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